She Stopped Wanting You & The Orgasm Gap Is Why (Here's the Fix!)

She Stopped Wanting You & The Orgasm Gap Is Why (Here's the Fix!)

She didn't lose interest in sex. She lost interest in sex that never worked for her. Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons — award-winning psychologist, Emory University professor, and author of Good Sex — breaks down the real data behind the orgasm gap, why it slowly kills a woman's desire, and exactly what closes it.

• Why 75% of women have faked it (and what that's really costing you)
• The script both men AND women buy into that kills her desire over time
• Why lesbians are finishing at 88% — and what straight couples can learn from it
• The mental load connection nobody talks about
• How mutual masturbation rewires the whole dynamic
• What to do tonight to start closing the gap for good

📖 Good Sex: Stories, Science & Strategies for Sexual Liberation — available now  Find Dr. Hargons: https://www.instagram.com/dr.candicenicole/ https://www.drcandicenicole.com/

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Join in my 365 Days of Orgasms Journey Here: https://talksexwithannette.com/365-days-of-orgasms/

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Transcript

Welcome And The New Show Name

SPEAKER_02 0:54

I'm Annette Benedetti, host of the podcast formerly known as Locker Room Talk and Shots. The show has a new name, Talk Sex with Annette. But at its core, this is still your locker room. It's where we strip away shame, get curious, and speak the unspoken about sex, kink dating, pleasure, and desire. Around here, nothing's off limits. These are the kinds of conversations we save for our boldest group chat, our most trusted friends, and of course, the women's locker room. Think raw, honest, and sometimes unapologetically raunchy. Welcome to my podcast where desire meets disruption and pleasure becomes power. Let's talk about sex. Cheers. Today's Talk Sex with the Net topic is the orgasm gap. It is here to stay. You know what the data keeps saying? Women are still finishing last, not metaphorically, statistically. Study after study shows that when straight women have sex, they orgasm significantly less than their male partners. So what the hell is happening? And more importantly, what would actually fix it? Today's guest has answers. Dr. Candace Nicole Hargan is an award-winning psychologist and associate professor at Emory University's Rollins School of Public Health, where she researches sexual wellness and liberation. She's published over 90 peer-reviewed articles. Her debut book, Good Sex Stories, Science, and Strategies for Sexual Liberations, is out now from Row House. She's been in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, Cosmopolitan, Women's Health, Essence, and Ebony. And she studies what makes sex actually good. And she knows exactly why. For so many women, it still isn't. Welcome to Talk Sex with Annette, Dr. Hargins. Before we dive in, though, I have to remind you that I'm over on OnlyFans and there I'm sharing my sex and intimacy, how-tos, demos, and audio guided self-pleasure meditations. You can find me there with my handle at Talk Sex with Annette. You can also find me on Substack with my handle at TalkSex with Annette there, doing a whole lot of the same things. And you can also scroll down to the notes section below where you can find both of us, all of the places you want to find both of us. The links will be there. But for now, Dr. Hargones, could you tell my listeners a little bit more about you?

SPEAKER_00 3:26

First, thank you so much for having me. It's a joy to be here today. And my name is Dr. Candace Hargons, and I am a hot girl scientist.

SPEAKER_02 3:35

Love that. Whether you are a heterosexual man or a heterosexual woman or a woman of any identity, this is a good podcast episode for you to listen to because the orgasm gap is real. And we are going to give you real strategies by the end of this podcast episode that you can use in your life to start closing that gap and for all women to start having more orgasms. And you guys know that I support that. This is an episode with real takeaways that are going to transform your life, whether you're having sex by yourself or with someone else. And we're going to get to the bottom of why that gap is there. I think I have some ideas, but I'm sure there's a lot more for me to learn. Let's get ready to talk about how women can have more orgasms, especially when they're with men. Cheers. Cheers. Thank you for being here. And I want to just dive in for my listeners that don't really understand what the orgasm gap is. Can you explain that just on a basic level?

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Yeah, it's when your partner is having an orgasm and you are not. So it's the distance between, for most of us, women's orgasm rates and men's orgasm rates, but there are data all kinds of stuff in between.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

I talk about the orgasm gap a lot, and men oftentimes have this very defensive reaction to it and say, oh, well, my girl has an orgasm all of the time. And then what I counter with is the statistics around the faking of the orgasm that most all of us have done. Do you have any data on that to back up what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 5:23

So I conducted a study once and it found that 75% of the women in the sample had faked an orgasm. And I posted the results on social media, and the women in the comments were like, girl, that is too low. Like I think that most women have likely faked at least one orgasm, and many more have faked multiple orgasms. So anytime I hear men getting that defensive posture about it, I'm like, but would they tell you if they had?

SPEAKER_02 5:54

And we're good at it. Like, we listen, men will be like, I know, I can tell by her body, I can feel it. I'm like, we can fake that too. We do cagles, I can make it squeeze and clamp down. We get very good at ending something that isn't working for us. So let's talk about how bad the orgasm gap numbers really are.

Stats On Orgasms And Faking

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Can you go over what that gap actually looks like? Right. So in a study done, I want to say it was 2021, the gap looked like 95% of heterosexual men orgasm the last time they had sex. 65% of heterosexual women orgasmed the last time they had sex. And then you have bisexual women at about 66%, so very close to heterosexual women, and then you have lesbians holding it strong at 88%, like a solid B. And then you have bisexual men at 88%, and then you have heterosexual men at the top. And so, based on sexual identity and also gender, we see some really big discrepancies with men being in the high 80s to mid-90s, and women outside of lesbians being in the low 70s, mid-60s. I have some new data. I haven't even published this yet, but I did a study with couples because those data are not for couples. So you don't know what the discrepancy or the gap is in the relationship. You just know how women at large are presenting it, and you don't know if the men that were sampled are also their partners. So for me, in a study of a thousand couples, but maybe about 775 answered this particular question, 88% of the partners reached orgasm. 71% of the women reached orgasm. That's a 17% gap.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

In that orgasm gas study that I've looked at, at least past studies, there's even a percentage of women who have never orgasmed at all. So a woman might be saying, Well, that felt really good. So I must have had an orgasm. I remember before I had my first orgasm, I was like, was that it? And then you have one and you're like, oh, that's it. And then you have a good one, you're like, oh, that's that's it. Yes. So is this a technique problem, or is it something deeper that's leading to men having orgasms and women having far, far fewer?

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Yeah, I think it's a combo meal. I think that there are some social scripts that we subscribe to around like the man's orgasm is the priority in sex. And I think men and women subscribe to that. We're socialized in it. We don't even know that we bought into it. But then there are also some technique issues because men don't watch porn and learn how to do clitoral stimulation. They learn how to bang it out, right? And we need the skill set to stimulate a clitoris. And for men, many women, if they're not prioritizing their own orgasm and stimulating their own clitoris, we find that the men don't necessarily have the skills unless they have been with some really patient lovers.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

I want to go back because I think this is a great opportunity to address some common comments that I get from men that I haven't had time to make individual video videos of. And you're the perfect guest to address this with me. You brought up the script that women buy into that's prioritizing men's pleasure. Now, my content primarily addresses how to pleasure a woman, how it's giving advice to people of all gender, particularly men, how to pleasure a woman during sex. And the comment I get again and again is okay, well, now what about what we want? Now, what about us? My response, and I'd like to have a conversation with you about this, is by me helping you pleasure her, I am addressing your needs because the most common complaint I hear from men is she doesn't want sex, she doesn't desire me. I want to feel desired. What I try to explain to them is she's already prioritizing your pleasure, your orgasm, which is how we got into this mess in the first place. She does when you first started dating, that script was all fun and good because there was the excitement of the relationship. But that can only last so long before you're like, ah, this is a work. I don't want to do it anymore.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

That's spot on. And I think when people who kind of buy into patriarchy hear a talented woman like yourself expressing that women's needs should be prioritized, then the immediate defense is like, but what about me? Because they're so used to being centered. But if it's a person who's probably evolved a bit more, they're like, hmm, are my needs already getting met? How can I contribute to my partner's well-being, their pleasure, their desire, and not like troubleshooting it in a way that places all the blame on the woman or all the attention for them. But I I hear so many women when I'm doing therapy with women about that obligatory sex where it's like, you know what, I'm just here so I won't get fined. Nobody, nobody enjoys that type of sex. The man on the receiving end feels like he's being done a favor, and he might take the favor, but it's not that meaningful, connected, passionate sex. And the woman on the other side is like, okay, I checked off one of my chores and on to the next day.

SPEAKER_02 12:05

Can you explain that script for my listeners a little bit? Because they're like, I know their reaction is instantly going to be like, Well, she's not focusing on me. She doesn't even want to have sex with me. And trying to explain to them, no, she has prioritized your pleasure. And that's how you got here. Maybe you're not remembering that first piece because it's always like, oh, after you get married, they don't do it anymore. And this is where that script comes into play.

The Sex Script That Centers Men

SPEAKER_00 12:37

Yeah, I think there's a part of it that is overlooking or taking for granted how much someone put into your well-being, your pleasure, your desire. Because it's so normalized that the man should have an orgasm, and it's so normalized that it's up in the air whether the woman will, the expectation is that he will every time and he'll figure it out, and that's when sex ends when he comes. And so for the two years, three years in that limerence period where they're enjoying each other, maybe it doesn't feel like a chore. But afterwards, for a lot of women, it begins to feel like, okay, well, there's been two or three years, and you haven't met me with the same intention that I've met you when it comes to my pleasure. Well, in order to avoid upsetting you or annoying you, I'll keep doing this thing, but I'm gonna have to find my pleasure in other ways.

SPEAKER_02 14:30

Right. This leads into another common response I get from men. Recently, I did an interview with a woman who focuses on seniors, sex with seniors. And we were laughing about how when men get excited and they're talking dirty to you, they say things like, Oh, I'm gonna fuck you so hard. I'm gonna pound you. And and in our minds, we're like, please don't, don't do that.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

That's not what I asked for.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

And I posted that that clip in particular. And while I want to point out that actually many of my male listeners are very receptive and laugh along with it and get it, I also get a large number of male listeners who ask this question. But why does she tell me to do it sometimes? Why does she say fuck harder sometimes? So I want to answer that question with you because I have some thoughts on why women say harder, faster. I want to feel you bang me hard when in actuality it's not what we really want most of the time. But I would love to hear your perspective. Why do women ask to get pounded hard by their partner when in actuality that's not the thing that we enjoy the most?

SPEAKER_00 15:56

I bet you're probably gonna say the same thing, but it's the getting it over with. And so if you just adopt a porn script, a performance of sex, where it's like all the things that you might hear in a porn around like faster, harder, things that have become so common for someone who watches that. It's like, let's just get this thing over with. I'm gonna use all of the language that might compel you to orgasm faster so we can just be done. Instead of saying slow down because I need this type of attention, or let's shift positions, or let's stop here because I'm done. We often encourage and kind of reward some bad behavior.

SPEAKER_02 16:39

And because to tell you this isn't working for me, I don't think I'm gonna get there. The toll that is gonna take later on however you react to that or the next time we have sex isn't worth it, right? The price is not worth the saying the thing in the moment to fix what's going on. I also think that there's the performance piece early on in the relationship. It may not even be about getting it over with, but it may be performing and being the hot girl that says the things that we think that you want us to say because we want to turn you on and we want to be sexy. And we see that men like that. So there's the performance piece. My one caveat to all of this is if you've done your job really well, meaning you did the external clitoral play and got us warmed up, and then you went to her G spot and got us warmed up, and our vaginal canal opens, then there is access to our A spot, and that's when even I like a good pounding. But you gotta unlock the other doors to get there. And for me, also, usually as I'm orgasming or after orgasm, I enjoy it. I'm open that all of my spots are like glittering, and I'm like, this is this is the good stuff. Now, typically I experience that when I'm by myself, but but I do think that with a partner, there can actually be true moments where that's what we want. But I wouldn't say that's the majority of the time with a heterosexual male male partner.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

And if you go from if you watch your partner, guess speaking to men who are invested in pleasing their partner, if you watch your partner go from mum's the word to faster, harder with no in-between that feels more like a crescendo, it's likely that it's performative. If you see that there's like a gradual movement toward that, then maybe you're on the other side where you have accessed, like you said, use the key and unlock those layers of her pleasure so that that her body is welcoming it.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

That idea of unlocking layers of pleasure. I always talk about it getting the key to unlock the doors to each deeper level, but it really is layers of pleasure. And I want to also offer a solution because guys are like, well, fuck, how the fuck do I know then? I think that if she starts saying, I'm fuck me hard, and the doctor here just said, you haven't seen anything to indicate this, you're moving through the layers. It you can stop and say, Hey, I don't get the feeling this is working for you. Like, I want to warm you up. I want to make you feel good. This isn't all about me. That would feel so good. I could then let down and be like, probably knowing myself, I'm a people pleaser. I would initially be like, oh no, it's fine. And then I'd be like, Oh, can we pull out a toy and do this at the end and get me there? And then I could get to that place. But you can take it into your own hands and say, hey, it's okay. We need to slow down or do something else.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

And it's about, so say your partner is in that place, it can also be a teasing gesture. So it doesn't even have to be mechanical. I love that recommendation you just gave because you're thinking about, let me check in with you, even in the moment. I'm noticing you, I'm attending to you. And it doesn't seem like you're there that I'm committed to getting you there or us getting there together because I'm there. And if your partner happens to be like, no, actually, yes, I am, it's like I'm gonna wait anyway, because I'm gonna tease you more or bring you. I mean, there's nobody is gonna be disappointed in some teasing and some playing.

When Harder Is A Performance

SPEAKER_02 20:53

It's not a race, you're not in a race to the finish. And I think that's probably part of the problem. For some reason, we all get so goal-oriented. Yeah, and it's like, all right, when are we getting to the orgasm? And and one of the reasons why lesbians, girl sex, why it looks different is there's not really that end point. Like, even when we orgasm, if we're going for a late night, we're like, okay, let's keep playing, let's do something else. Because there's not this uh societally marked uh end point.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

I was just thinking about when you said that the way women play with each other sexually is really the script that we need to be thinking about using in all relationships. Like I think that there isn't a beginning and an end, and so it can all be an erotic space if you allow it to be that orgasm shouldn't be the goal, it's just like a bet a bonus, I guess, or along the way of a sexual journey. Yeah, I think I love that.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

I am curious about the stat on a bisexual women. I identify as bisexual and pansexual. Do you know because the stat for bisexual women isn't great either. Do you know if that applies to intimacy with both men and women? It does, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 22:25

I think I need to figure that out. I don't know the answer to that. I have some data that I could probably dig into that a bit more, but I have never done it. So I'm curious too.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

Can I throw out some thoughts? Because I'm bisexual and pansexual, and I've I have struggled in most of my relationships, regardless of the gender of the person I'm having sex with. And I've got a couple of thoughts on that. And I think there are two factors. A I as a bipan woman have been with more men. So I'm still buying in to the script a little bit, right? It's hard to not when your whole life that's kind of been the script you've been put in. So I I'm probably more likely to do the things that make it harder to orgasm from my end than a lesbian peer who's primarily focused on sex with women and hasn't bought into that script as much. That's one of my thoughts. The second one is this even if I'm dating a lesbian, I think that sometimes in that dynamic, if I'm dating a woman who knows I I'm also attracted to men. I also enjoy fucking men. They try to take on that role and like fuck me like a guy would fuck me. I'm like, that's not what I want. And feel the pressure of, oh, the orgasm. Have you come yet? Are you coming? Whereas I think in a lesbian-to-lesbian dynamic, when there's not even the thought of another male entering the picture, it releases relieves some expectation.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

What do you think? I mean, you're the expert.

SPEAKER_02 24:23

I'm just listening and learning, like I, I I I this is because I've thought about it and I have never thought to ask an expert if that stat is focusing on bi women's sex with a heterosexual male or just in general.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

One of my mentees, their name is Casey V. Hill. They just did their dissertation on plurisexual women. So women who are bisexual, pansexual, and those who are plurisexual, but in relationships with men. And if they prioritize their partner's pleasure, they are less likely to have their own pleasure. And so I think it speaks to what you just said. It's like if you come into it with this rip that no matter who I'm with, I'm supposed to prioritize my partner's pleasure, then your pleasure is second.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

My pleasure feels like work sometimes. You know what I mean? And then the whole thing starts to feel like work. Like I will oftentimes, and and even in my relationships with women, I'll be the giver. And then once like that's happened, which is exciting and fun and blah, blah, blah. But then I'm just like, can we just not do me? Because you're already tired. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, I had fun. This was great. And I think that's just something I've learned through conditioning. And that that plays out across board on this orgasm gap topic. So men and queer women who date by and pan women need to be listening to this. We want orgasms too, but it's exhausting. So you have to make it not exhausting for us.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

Because it's not exhausting in solo sex, right? It's quick and it's very efficient and pleasurable. But sometimes when another person is in that place space with us, if you've been socialized to deprioritize yourself, it can feel selfish. If you're if you're in the script of prioritizing someone else's pleasure, then you're probably likely to do that with anyone. But if you exhaust all of your good energy on other people, yeah, it's likely that you'll have less for yourself. And so shifting to I focus on my pleasure first, not exclusively, but first can be useful.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

Maybe that's what I need to do. I'll tell you what, I'm my own best lover. I really enjoy having sex with myself. I even will drag out a session with myself for hours. It's wonderful. But I think what I want to talk about next so people understand the severity of the consequence of this. What happens to a woman emotionally, mentally, physically, who it starts to experience years, if not a lifetime, of unfulfilling sex?

SPEAKER_00 27:26

I think it I think it dims her flame. I think there's an erotic energy that all of us carry, especially as we come through puberty and we're in the early stages of life. You start to feel like energized by your eroticism. And if it's false, if it's always to the benefit of somebody else, it kind of extinguishes it. I think that's a sad place to be for your mental health and your physical health.

SPEAKER_02 28:51

I have noticed when I go through periods of feeling less sexy or sexual, it affects everything for me. I mean, even the non-sexual parts of my life. Do you feel like it affects your creativity? 100%. How I connect with people, what I want to do as far as socially speaking, when I'm really feeling like myself, because it's a part of me. So when it dims, I feel like I'm losing something. Yes. Like a part of myself. Then I'm like, do I want to? All my friends are going out dancing tonight. I'm like, do I want to go? Which when I'm feeling myself, I'm like, let's go dancing and let's go do this thing. And yeah, let's go get cute cocktails. But when I kind of lose that, I'm just like, I'll just stay in and I kind of go into homemaker mode. Oh mess, I'll do this.

Lessons From Lesbian Pleasure Culture

SPEAKER_00 29:53

You get cozy as opposed to like that confident, exuberant version of you. And like even like you were just talking about with dance, like dance is so sensual and erotic, if you allow it to be. And so to not have that, you just hit on a nerve with me too, because I used to be a dancer when I was younger. And I think that was probably the most erotic time of my life because like all of the movements and dancing with people, like it's just such a great way to attune to your erotic self.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

Right. And I think that even talking about this and then thinking about the couples that I work with in coaching who have lost that connection and the desire and the spark, I think that that's what happens with a lot of women. They just totally disconnect from it and they can still love their partner. And I don't know if you have data on this, but I've also noticed when my own sensuality has started to drain, I tend to put on weight. I tend to feel less healthy, less energetic, less active. Do you know if there's stats around that?

SPEAKER_00 31:04

No, but I think that would be a really good study.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

Because certainly having orgasms and pleasure and connection and physical physical touch affects your health, improves your health. We've got lots of science around that, correct?

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Absolutely. But not on not something experimental where well, I can say this. So I led the magic wand study. I was the scientific lead on that last year, and we've been sharing data about that throughout. But we had a seven-day abstinence period, a seven-day magic wand everyday period, and then a seven-day sex as usual period. And all of the health indicators dipped during the abstinence period. And then they were thriving during the magic wand period, and the sex as usual period came after the magic wand period. And so it kind of stayed level. I'd be curious to see if we remixed it, how if we put different stages in different places, what it would be. But to your point, we found that pleasure every day, play, sexual play every day, boosted confidence, boosted your sense of body confidence, boosted your sense of connection with others, connecting with your partner, your sleep quality, your mood. So we know that it is correlated. But what we should do an experiment with is if we have them both going on and different people at the same time, what will happen?

SPEAKER_02 32:29

For people out there listening, not having equal pleasure can make your relationship feel unequal in other ways. It can be from confidence, from happiness to physical health. I mean, it's it's essential to have pleasure in your life for physical health, mental health, emotional health, spiritual health. So if you're feeling a disconnect from your wife or your female's partner, or you're noticing her decline in ways, that should be a good motivation to learn how to start bridging this gap, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

And if you can make the commitment totally about her for a while, I think that would go a long way. So if, like most people do, that you can take care of your own pleasure for a season, you're gonna just focus on her, focus on hers to help her get back to whatever level feels right for her. I think that could go a long way in the relationship sustainability.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

But does focusing on her pleasure mean focusing on it only in bed, or does that start outside of the bedroom?

SPEAKER_00 33:53

Definitely, yes. I think it's multifaceted. And what I hear from a lot of couples is the man doesn't feel like he has capacity to focus on someone else more than he focuses on himself. So they're not socialized that that's even typical, honorable, useful, meaningful behavior. And so if you go 30 years, 40 years, 50 years with this idea that I'm supposed to prioritize myself first, when a coach or a therapist says, let's shift that for a while, they kind of spiral out for a moment. And I think that hopefully we're getting to a season, and maybe the men in your community who came to learn are going to just try to practice it. Because then maybe they have to unpack some stuff in themselves, but they are prioritizing their partner in a way that suggests you're who I want to be with for a while.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

Right. It is interesting when people couples come to me for coaching. It's the man who initiates it that wants to work on it. But I do think the hard thing for men to hear and understand is like I know you're the one feeling a need to be filled, but you're going to have to work on like making this about her. Because if she's totally disengaged, if she's totally turned off, like reversing that after years and years of it going a certain way is gonna take time. It is. And convincing her it's worth it. And that's the one that convincing women that it's worth it to reinvest in their own sexual pleasure and sexual connection with anybody else is not an easy task. So I guess this is kind of the part of the conversation where I want to start talking about solutions for women, men, couples. How do we convince women, first of all, who are already in that place where they've been having sex that's not been enjoyable their whole life, and now they're doling it out once a month, once every three months, if they can get away with it, just to maintain the relationship.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

I think starting with your solo sex makes a big difference. So if you don't, if you've been doling it out to only somebody else and you have not been doling it out to yourself, start there for sure. Remind your body, remind your spirit, remind yourself that sex is good to and for you. And when you begin there, getting that practice. I love what you said in that earlier about I enjoy making love to myself. I spend hours with myself sometimes. Maybe you don't feel like you have that amount of time, but put it in your schedule. Some of us have to schedule everything, and that might need to be it. And then take that practice into your sexual relationship. So, whatever the thing you're doing to please yourself first, let that be first on the menu when you guys are engaging in sex, so that your script around sex starts to shift to she comes first, I come first, and your partner will get on board with that part. I know for sure. Especially if they feel like, oh, if you come first is the the move, and then I'm gonna get something too. Yes, I'm with that.

How Bad Sex Dims Your Life

SPEAKER_02 37:33

So it is masturbation May right now. We're recording this during masturbation May. May is one of my favorite months. It's like Mother's Day, it's my birthday, and it's masturbation May, which is one of my favorite things to do. And I just wrote a little guide and and did a little how-to video on mutual masturbation. And one of my thoughts for a good place to start is like mutual masturbation practice and bringing bringing that into your bedroom. And a partner, he he's gonna be thrilled to watch you and to join in, and he's gonna learn from you watching what you do, even if you're using a toy, he can start with the learning how to use that on you.

SPEAKER_00 38:24

Yes, I love a good mutual masturbation situation. I think that is gonna be phenomenal. I can't wait to share that. And I would also say that if the man in your life needs to get out of this idea that penetration is like the home base, I think that mutual masturbation practice will help him with that. Because a lot of folks come up in the I did the first base, second base, third base home. Like, so once you got to the next stage, you were like, I'm never going back to just that. But that first stage is all right with me. Sometimes you need to play around in that area for a while. And so just reminding them that you're not less of a man if we're not having penetrative sex, like you're not unnecessary. This is something that we both still get to enjoy.

SPEAKER_02 39:20

Right, really getting to enjoy each other's bodies and and with mutual yeah, and learning and with mutual masturbation, that's also where a lot of real appreciation is born because you instead of using porn or just your imagination to turn you on, you get to look at your partner's body and see what's beautiful and attract and really be there with them and see them in this intimate, erotic space. And one of the things I talk about is taking time to like say those things to them while you're watching them. Oh, like you're so beautiful. I haven't seen you like this before, or I never knew you did that. It's so hot, you're so sexy. You're so sexy. I didn't know you could be this sexy. Like saying those things that remind both of you of why you ended up together and what turned you on about each other in the first place.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

Yes. And for the women, saying those things about your partner goes a long way in that moment where he's not penetrating or doing like sex in the typical ways that people think sex should be done. It's like you're hot, touching yourself. You are sexy, and I think a lot of men are really hungry for, starved for somebody to affirm them sexually, which is how we get here.

SPEAKER_02 40:42

Which circles back to the men who are like, what about my needs? Again, we're addressing your needs by fixing the problem, which is that she isn't coming, right? And she's not experiencing pleasure. When she's experiencing pleasure and when she's super turned on and looking at you, she's gonna want to say those things because she's gonna feel them, right? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 41:07

When I I was talking to the author of Boys and Sex, Teggy Ornstein, and she was like, I was like, What is what is good sex to you? And she was like, fresh baked cookies. And that metaphor to me was like, I don't ever want to just eat one fresh baked cookie, and there's not a day that goes by that I would say no to a fresh baked cookie if it was available to me. You want the sex to feel like fresh baked cookies, just not a chore. We all can say no to chores as often as we have the opportunity to. We can outsource chores very easily, but nobody's gonna say no to a cookie. And so, how do you guys get to the good warm cookie sex?

SPEAKER_02 41:49

Right. It's not a chore, it's a treat. Sex is a treat, it needs to be a treat. Yeah. So, how do they get that? Let's give them some real strong takeaways. What has your research taught you about the things that can really close this gap for couples?

SPEAKER_00 42:09

So, first is the mindset shift and the masturbation, like you said, is a part of that where it's like, my pleasure is so important that I put it on my schedule. My pleasure is so important that I show my partner how I want to be pleased. And for the male partner, the mindset shift is her pleasure is so important that it comes first. Her pleasure is so important that I want to be a good student. Her pleasure is so important that I want to learn all of the options available to me to contribute to her pleasure. That's the mindset shift that you can't even move past it in any meaningful way until you start to see each other as like worthy, pleasure worthy, seeing yourself as pleasure worthy, seeing your partner as pleasure worthy. And then the second is really the practice. I think there is a lot to be learned from educators, sex educators, and coaches who show people how to do the good stuff. So you've got your, I like to do yes, no, maybe souls with couples. So you've got all of the sexual staples, the activities you want to do, and then you've got the seasonings, like how you want them done. And the staples, most of us do not have good practice or sex education in how to do the thing. And so learning from people who are showing you how it's done, giving tutorials on it, that type of studiousness and attentiveness goes a long way. So those are the two. It's your mindset, but it's also your practice.

Solo Pleasure And Mutual Masturbation

SPEAKER_02 43:42

Right. And there just isn't a lot of pleasure education out there, right? There's sex education, but teaching the actual mechanics of it, the how-tos of it isn't out there. And then a lot of it's gatekeeping. And so it's really important to find people who are just like giving you the information, giving you approaches. So for instance, I give a lot of approaches, and then you always get the people who are like, well, that doesn't work for me. Well, not every tool is gonna work for you, but you try the tool and you see if it does work for you, right? Because there's so many, so many out there.

SPEAKER_00 44:20

And trying the tool more than once sometimes. Like just because you tried it the first time didn't mean you were good at it. Like, practice is really important and playful practice, not performance practice. Because, fact of mindset, if you get into it and you're thinking, I've gotta do this, I've got to win the race of orgasm, I've gotta be good at this as a man or as a woman. For very few people is that actually pleasurable. Usually it's just anxiety provoking.

SPEAKER_02 44:48

Some of the best sex I've had didn't, I didn't have an orgasm during because that was it, it's that orgasm actually became a non-issue because we were having so much fun. Yes. And then we're like, we gotta go to dinner. And we went to dinner, and then we came back and we played some more. You know what I mean? It was like it was like we're just enjoying being really sexy and hot and dirty together, and that's what we're doing tonight is just being these like hot, dirty beasts, and and org orgasm is a possibility, but that wasn't what the real turn on in the moment was, right?

SPEAKER_00 45:23

Yeah, it's I love that, and that's the same for me. Like sometimes it really isn't about the orgasm, but I think our conversation earlier about the gap isn't that it isn't about the orgasm because it's so good in other ways. It's and I think people can mix that up. It's like, no, I think we're all worthy of orgasms when we want this. Right.

SPEAKER_02 45:44

Well, that's a good point. Even even though I've had great sex without an orgasm, it doesn't mean that's I don't want that to be the story of the time. Don't get it wrong. Lots of things were happening that were were great, and and women need to be having orgasms to be good in relationship. Yeah, kept our health. Well, and that's kind of the other thing, the other piece. I'm 52 now, and just the to keep my vagina healthy, I need to want to have some sort of penetration and play. It keeps my skin healthy, it keeps thing awful things like atrophy from happening. And just oh, it that's how we elongate our lives. So I want you to give my listeners three takeaways, three things they can start doing tonight to improve their sex life if they recognize uh, I'm I'm probably one of the People living in the gap. What are things they can start doing tonight to change that?

SPEAKER_00 46:48

So we've got the long game work, which I talked about, which is your mindset shift and your practice. But the immediate things are really sitting with your partner to ask what they like. Because that changes. Like, so I call it a sexual menu making, but sitting down and doing a yes, no, maybe so with your partner where you have your staples, these are the activities I really like. When I was 25-year-old Candace, the activities that I liked or even knew existed are very different than 43-year-old Candace, right? So sometimes you've been with someone for so long that you don't know what they like, really. Ask your partner what they like. Write down your list of activities you like, your staples, and how you like it. Like, do you want it to be nasty? Do you want it to be passionate? Do you want it to be sensual? Put that on your menu together, share them. That's something you can do tonight. And then after you do that, choose one. Choose one and say, for the next few weeks, this is going to be the thing that we try. So that you're not overwhelming yourself with all of the things that might be on a person's list because that can be overwhelming. And then you're like, I don't want to do anything. Try one thing and practice that one thing and try to avoid evaluating that thing. Just be playful with that thing for a few weeks, a few months, even. And then after you've had some time with it to play around with it, you guys can come back together. But those are the two things that you can do just to take away tonight. Get your sexual menus together and then share them and then decide together what's the one thing that's on your yes list for both of you that you're gonna try.

SPEAKER_02 48:34

I love that you mentioned just taking the one thing and giving it a couple of weeks. It's not like we're doing this just one night.

SPEAKER_00 48:42

And I think people get stuck in that trap, right? Where they're like, well, I tried it and it didn't work. It probably won't the first time.

SPEAKER_02 48:50

Yeah, the first time I tried Pleasure AirTech toys, it didn't work either. And now it's like I don't know what I would do with that. No, and it does change. Also, the more you practice one thing and learn how to do it and enjoy it, or start it starts in, then your palate broadens. Next thing all those things, you're like, oh, I would never do that. You're like, gimme, gimme, right?

SPEAKER_00 49:14

Yes. So I love that. Those are the two. What are what about you? Wouldn't what you think?

Sexual Menus And Tonight’s Takeaways

SPEAKER_02 49:21

What what they what they should start doing to close their take takeaways. Yeah, I I mean, I agree with you. I think has sitting down and having that conversation is the first piece. And you've got to sit down and have a conversation in a way that you're both open and you're not gonna personalize what someone says. Because if you're sitting down to the conversation, and let's say I'm the man and I'm like, so hey, I was listening to this podcast and I've been learning about this orgasm gap. And I just want to check in with you. When we have sex, do you have an orgasm? She's most likely at first, she's gonna be like, Oh, yeah, it's but when you get to that honest place and she's like, Well, sometimes I fake it or it's not exactly what I want, you have to be able to receive it and say, Hey, that's okay. Yeah, like I I want to have this conversation to fix it. And likewise, ladies, you have to start saying the thing and being prepared for feelings to rise and managing that and sticking to your guns and saying, Hey, I still love you. I want to be with you, but I want, I want to change this.

SPEAKER_00 50:30

And in that framing that you used earlier, like I actually want to want you. The reason I don't is what we're working on right now. I want that part of me back.

SPEAKER_02 50:40

Yeah. And I I love that phrasing. I want that part of me back. I want to be excited to get home and have sex with you, and I need help. Guys like to fix things. Don't they? We may, we may have just cured there. We go the work asm gap right here. But those that conversation without that, any tactic you I think employ isn't gonna work until you get really honest and and able to communicate, it's gonna be really hard to make everything else work. But once you have that conversation, definitely the menu is a great, a great idea. And it's it's a must. And then after you try something coming back and having honest conversations about it.

SPEAKER_01 51:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:30

And having that honest conversation makes all the difference. I mean, when you can be honest with your partner, when both of you have the ability to tolerate human emotion and honesty, you're gonna go a long way.

SPEAKER_02 51:46

And I think we should end our suggestions with, because I know that we both agree on this masturbation, both on your own and with a partner, are going to go miles towards fixing this. Even just for women listening or partners who want to start working on this, encouraging your female partner. That's a great way to start building up your libido again. If you start your own masturbation practice, self-pleasure practice, if you can get your partner to give you the space to explore, your libido will start firing up. Because you start feeling pleasure and those chemicals and hormones dump in your system, you get a little addicted to it, right? And it will fire up that libido. Then you can do it with a partner. And A, it's sexy and hot, and they can learn from you.

SPEAKER_00 52:41

That's right. I love it. And this is a perfect time to start because it's masturbation day.

SPEAKER_02 52:47

Thank you so much for joining me. Can you tell my listeners where they can find out more about you and learn from you?

Where To Find Annette And Candace

SPEAKER_00 52:54

Yes, you can find me on Instagram, threads at Dr. Candice Nicole, D-R-C-A-N-D-I-C-E-N-I-C-O-L-E, and on my website website, drcandice Nicole.com. My TED Talk, TEDx Talk is out there for ways to season your sex life. And my book, Good Sex Story, Science, and Strategies for Sexual Liberation, is available on Amazon and other places. Books are soul.

SPEAKER_02 53:24

Good sex, guys. Why wouldn't you not want that book? That's my question. Thank you so much for joining us today, folks. The orgasm gap is real and it's not going away. And even if you don't want to hear about it anymore, the conversation isn't going away. So you're gonna have to address it in your life at some point, regardless of your gender, right? Now we know, I guess unless you're a lesbian and you've always been a lesbian, then you guys are good to go. But things can always be improved, right? For the rest of us, this is real and you've got real information. Now you've got real strategies. You can start employing employing in your bedroom tonight. So go do it, report back. You can give me your thoughts, your experiences. If you're on my YouTube channel at TalkSex within it, you can drop your thoughts in the comments below, or you can email me at Annette at talksexwithinet.com. I will do my best to get back to you. Thank you again for joining me and joining us today.

SPEAKER_00 54:27

You so much for having me.

SPEAKER_02 54:30

And until next time, I'll see y'all in the locker room. Cheers.